The following is a transcript of an interview with Chris Krebs, former director of CISA and cybersecurity expert and analyst for CBS News, broadcast on May 19, 2024.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And we're joined by Chris Krebs, cybersecurity expert and analyst for CBS News and former head of the Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency. It's good to be back.
Chris Krebs: Good to be back.
MARGARET BRENNAN: We're seeing this again, especially in the polls we've done in Arizona, which was the epicenter of election denialism in 2020. That means nearly half of Trump supporters say the 2024 presidential election results in Arizona should be investigated and challenged if Biden wins. Seven out of ten of her respondents identify themselves as “MAGA.” Will this be a repeat of 2020? I mean, what happens?
Chris Krebs: Well, all of these allegations are despite the credible evidence that has been presented in court and to other people and experts there. There are continuing claims that there are problems with the 2020 and even 2022 midterm elections. Therefore, the incentive structure and the way it is currently aligned has the space and tolerance to argue that it once again matters, despite reliable evidence and continued investments in election security, electoral resilience, and modernization. I think it creates an environment. election system. You know, in 2020 we talked about his 95% or so of paper votes. Now that number is probably closer to 98. We've made improvements over the years.
Margaret Brennan: It's interesting that you make that point about the paper, since Donald Trump claimed during the campaign that 2020 was rigged. The same may apply to Claim 2024. Listen to what he just said.
TRUMP: Our goal with elections is to someday vote with a paper ballot, proof of citizenship, voter ID. It's very simple. If you want to save America and the Second Amendment, it doesn't matter to me whether you register, vote absentee or mail-in, vote early, or vote on Election Day. .
Margaret Brennan: So there are two things. He is currently voting by mail. He was against them in 2020, but you said there is already a paper trail. He says there is nothing.
Chris Krebs: Right now, the vast majority of votes cast in the United States come from a paper trail. A small percentage will be recorded in the election system, but this is for accessibility for people who may have visual impairments, etc. And it's important to ensure an open and accessible voting process. This one-day vote, this push, this push, it's actually counterproductive. It actually runs counter to participation, resilience and security in democratic institutions. The long preparation period, weeks and months before an election, allows us to detect if there are problems and resolve them. Even if there is an election on the same day, many things happen in life. First, someone might get sick, get into a traffic accident, or be unable to go to the polls. But if something happens early on, it can have a cascading and devastating effect on people going to the polls and voting on Election Day. So I'm much more in favor of the current system with early voting, mail-in voting, and absentee voting.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Your successor at CISA, Director of National Intelligence Jen Easterly, also testified that they are very prepared and that our election infrastructure is more secure than ever. At the same time, however, we are hearing from the US intelligence community that, for example, China is experimenting with generative AI to influence voters. How do people understand the impact of actually fiddling with the ballot and effort?
Chris Krebs: I think that's a valid distinction. There is interference, that is, technical manipulation of the system. As CISA's successor, Jen Easterly, said in a Senate hearing earlier this week, the investments we're making, the continued improvements throughout the system, will ensure safe and secure elections in 2020. When I said that, it's safe to say it's even safer now. Because there is continuous investment, continuous improvement of the entire system. But the threat environment is much more volatile, as you mentioned in terms of influence, scope, scale, and technologies available to adversaries, such as AI and deepfakes. China is active. Russia is very active. They are using deepfakes in Europe. We've seen AI emerge in Moldova, Slovakia, and Bangladesh. So it's going to be a tool. But my sense is that AI-based threats and AI-enabled threats are going to look a lot like the robocalls that happened in New Hampshire. It will be detected quickly, investigated quickly and prosecuted. That's what's happening now. But the biggest concern is that this is cumulative. In other words, rather than a single catastrophic event powered by AI;
Margaret Brennan: Yeah.
Chris Krebs: There will be a steady drumbeat that will cause us, our voters, and our people to lose confidence and trust in our comprehensive information ecosystem.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And our polls already show that. loss of confidence.
Chris Krebs: Some might say that's part of the strategy.
Margaret Brennan: That's scary.
Chris Krebs: That's right.
Margaret Brennan: CNN reported that both the Chinese and Iranian governments attempted to use fake AI content in 2020, but chose not to deploy it. Is that accurate?
Chris Krebs: I can't speak to the specific information there. But that's not surprising. We have been talking about deepfakes and AI as risk vectors for years, at least five. So it's completely believable that anyone, whether it's the Russians, the Chinese, the Iranians, the North Koreans, has been tinkering with and researching this technology for the past four years. think. But we're seeing it now. As I mentioned earlier, we are already seeing this situation in Europe. We're seeing a similar phenomenon here, and expect AI-generated content to continue to emerge between now and the election. And this is where technology platforms come into play: It's important to stay on top of things.
Margaret Brennan: Yeah.
Chris Krebs: That AI companies are making their platforms unmanipulable. The challenge, of course, is that there are open source models available.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And unfortunately, we're going to have to continue to talk about this over the next few months. Because this is likely to be a deep-seated problem. we will be back soon.
